I'm not sure it applies to the acceptance of false things as true, in a strict sense. I think it more applies to accepting the true and untrue as being very similar within the human mind, which seems more similar than it is.
cooperati
· 2 months ago
This is so good. It's an awesome step in a great direction. I can't say right or correct, because it's really just an option to perceive the world in terms relating to unreal experiences. It's just as equally valid to ignore them.
As far as religion, this exposes one severe problem you admittedly have with the people who follow the church, and take those stories as literal fact. So, it's this result that you oppose, which you take as the primary effect of the existence of the church, and possibly their self-fulfilling purpose.
**However, in either case, the supposition is that both real and unreal experiences are applicable to reality. So, it's irrelevant whether or not the person accepts a false experience as real.**
Lastly, the problem of fanaticism exists in both real and unreal things. For example, all the energy and enthusiasm surrounding sports, or rock bands, diversions from constructive purposes, but self-fulfilling in and by themselves. People will kill or impose their views on any subject, and can cause a criminal cult in every aspect of humanity.
Food for thought. Peace, bro.
-=T=-
Jon
· 2 months ago
How would this apply to Bible believers? Does this shed light one why people feel so attached to certain "sacred" texts?
CarlM
· 2 months ago
I'm a tad puzzled. I know that this isn't the case, but the post comes across as something from someone who has just discovered reading and is surprised to discover that one can learn important things about life through reading and that one can FEEL like one has lived the experiences and met the characters described in a book.
TRUE: "What this means is that you can actually experience more of life by reading."
Of course this is true. It's sort of the _point_ of much reading.
FALSE: "It means that you can look back upon the things you’ve experienced while reading as things you’ve done."
Regardless of how well written something is and how well it conveys an experience and the lessons to be learned from that experience, reading is NOT the same thing as doing. I assume that you're asserting that IN SOME CASES there is very little _practical_ difference between reading and doing, but really, Daniel, they're not the same thing.
Daniel Miessler
· 2 months ago
I agree that you're puzzled.
I've known for decades that reading extends experiences and teaches one about life, via proxy. My idea, I believe, takes things a step further.
CarlM
· 2 months ago
"I agree that you're puzzled."
:-D Great answer.
I know that the idea that reading extends experiences isn't new to you. My comment was that this is how the post reads.
I would suggest that reading a book about a baseball game is analagous to listening to a radio broadcast of a baseball game. If the book is well written, and if the broadcasters are good at their jobs, you can become so immersed in the experience that it is like being at the game .. it can be even BETTER (in some ways) than being at the game because if you lack expertise and are at the game you might not know where to look and what to look for .. you might not appreciate the light breeze off the lake and the smell of spring in the air .. you might not see the pitcher get up in the bullpen (a signal that the current pitcher might be starting to tire). If you watch on TV a well made movie about a baseball game, there can be little difference between seeing an inning play out in the movie and seeing an inning play out in an actual live baseball game on that same TV. So, in this sense, the experience of fiction and the experience of reality are nearly indistinguishable (as you seem to be suggesting). I would suggest that YOU think that it matters whether or not the person experiencing these things knows whether the experiences are of real or fictional events. (Perhaps I'm wrong .. in which case, you need to rethink your criticisms of biblical literalists.)
Anyway, I stand by my assertion that it is wrong to assert that "you can look back upon the things you’ve experienced while reading as things you’ve done." But I think that we may be interpreting that statement in different ways. If your assertion is that reading about a baseball game is essentially equivalent to hearing a good broadcast of a baseball game, then I'd not disagree. If your assertion is that reading about a baseball game is essentially equivalent to being at a baseball game, I'd disagree. The reading might convey all of the key points of being at a game, but BEING at a baseball game is fundamentally different .. there are so many parts of that experience that it is impossible for even the most talented author to capture them all. It might feel like you are there, but when you are ACTUALLY there you will notice the difference. Still .. the experience of reading about a baseball game CAN be sufficiently sufficiently similar to being there that I'll not argue strenuously about this. HOWEVER, if your assertion is that reading about rock climbing (regardless of how well written) is in any way equivalent to rock climbing, then I'd disagree strenuously.
So, if you feel like you know the characters in the HP series .. great .. I know the feeling from books and series of books that I have read and enjoyed. If you feel like you know what it is to be in the stands of a Quiddich game .. fair enough .. you've experienced it to the same extent that anyone else has. Enjoy books ... enjoy the virtual experiences contained within them. But, recognize the differences between real and virtual life (a line which will likely become much more blurred within our lifetimes).
CarlM
· 2 months ago
... on the topic of great books (and series) I have read ...
I think that the ideas of "primacy effect" and "recency effect" have to do with which are my favorites. A recently read book may be near the top of my list of favorites simply because (as you pointed out in your post) the characters and experiences seem more real than those from the distant past. (This is just the recency effect in action.) But, this post got me to thinking about my own favorite books (The Foundation Series, The Ender Series, ...) and I realized that two books that will probably always be high in my list of favorites are the first two books that got me excited about science fiction. I read them in Junior High School: Operation Time Search and The Universe Between. I have copies of both books that I bought at used bookstores as an adult .. and I was pleased to discover that the reviews of these books at Amazon are positive (I wasn't sure if they held a special place in my own memory because they got me excited about science fiction .. I suspect that this [the primacy effect] is a part of it).
All Comments
As far as religion, this exposes one severe problem you admittedly have with the people who follow the church, and take those stories as literal fact. So, it's this result that you oppose, which you take as the primary effect of the existence of the church, and possibly their self-fulfilling purpose.
**However, in either case, the supposition is that both real and unreal experiences are applicable to reality. So, it's irrelevant whether or not the person accepts a false experience as real.**
Lastly, the problem of fanaticism exists in both real and unreal things. For example, all the energy and enthusiasm surrounding sports, or rock bands, diversions from constructive purposes, but self-fulfilling in and by themselves. People will kill or impose their views on any subject, and can cause a criminal cult in every aspect of humanity.
Food for thought. Peace, bro.
-=T=-
TRUE: "What this means is that you can actually experience more of life by reading."
Of course this is true. It's sort of the _point_ of much reading.
FALSE: "It means that you can look back upon the things you’ve experienced while reading as things you’ve done."
Regardless of how well written something is and how well it conveys an experience and the lessons to be learned from that experience, reading is NOT the same thing as doing. I assume that you're asserting that IN SOME CASES there is very little _practical_ difference between reading and doing, but really, Daniel, they're not the same thing.
I've known for decades that reading extends experiences and teaches one about life, via proxy. My idea, I believe, takes things a step further.
:-D Great answer.
I know that the idea that reading extends experiences isn't new to you. My comment was that this is how the post reads.
I would suggest that reading a book about a baseball game is analagous to listening to a radio broadcast of a baseball game. If the book is well written, and if the broadcasters are good at their jobs, you can become so immersed in the experience that it is like being at the game .. it can be even BETTER (in some ways) than being at the game because if you lack expertise and are at the game you might not know where to look and what to look for .. you might not appreciate the light breeze off the lake and the smell of spring in the air .. you might not see the pitcher get up in the bullpen (a signal that the current pitcher might be starting to tire). If you watch on TV a well made movie about a baseball game, there can be little difference between seeing an inning play out in the movie and seeing an inning play out in an actual live baseball game on that same TV. So, in this sense, the experience of fiction and the experience of reality are nearly indistinguishable (as you seem to be suggesting). I would suggest that YOU think that it matters whether or not the person experiencing these things knows whether the experiences are of real or fictional events. (Perhaps I'm wrong .. in which case, you need to rethink your criticisms of biblical literalists.)
Anyway, I stand by my assertion that it is wrong to assert that "you can look back upon the things you’ve experienced while reading as things you’ve done." But I think that we may be interpreting that statement in different ways. If your assertion is that reading about a baseball game is essentially equivalent to hearing a good broadcast of a baseball game, then I'd not disagree. If your assertion is that reading about a baseball game is essentially equivalent to being at a baseball game, I'd disagree. The reading might convey all of the key points of being at a game, but BEING at a baseball game is fundamentally different .. there are so many parts of that experience that it is impossible for even the most talented author to capture them all. It might feel like you are there, but when you are ACTUALLY there you will notice the difference. Still .. the experience of reading about a baseball game CAN be sufficiently sufficiently similar to being there that I'll not argue strenuously about this. HOWEVER, if your assertion is that reading about rock climbing (regardless of how well written) is in any way equivalent to rock climbing, then I'd disagree strenuously.
So, if you feel like you know the characters in the HP series .. great .. I know the feeling from books and series of books that I have read and enjoyed. If you feel like you know what it is to be in the stands of a Quiddich game .. fair enough .. you've experienced it to the same extent that anyone else has. Enjoy books ... enjoy the virtual experiences contained within them. But, recognize the differences between real and virtual life (a line which will likely become much more blurred within our lifetimes).
I think that the ideas of "primacy effect" and "recency effect" have to do with which are my favorites. A recently read book may be near the top of my list of favorites simply because (as you pointed out in your post) the characters and experiences seem more real than those from the distant past. (This is just the recency effect in action.) But, this post got me to thinking about my own favorite books (The Foundation Series, The Ender Series, ...) and I realized that two books that will probably always be high in my list of favorites are the first two books that got me excited about science fiction. I read them in Junior High School: Operation Time Search and The Universe Between. I have copies of both books that I bought at used bookstores as an adult .. and I was pleased to discover that the reviews of these books at Amazon are positive (I wasn't sure if they held a special place in my own memory because they got me excited about science fiction .. I suspect that this [the primacy effect] is a part of it).