"the evil temptation of faith"? "our reason will subjugate our superstition"?
I think you are slightly off. For me, Atheism is a belief just like Deism is a belief. I (an Atheist) cannot prove the basis for my faith (for I believe in the absence of a deity), just as I cannot prove the Deist's basis for his or her faith (the existence of a deity).
Reason plays no role in my belief. Had there been a way to disprove the existence of any and all deities, things might be different, but all you are saying is - my reasoning demands that there is no deity. Your reasoning, your subjective reasoning. You are as objective as the deist - that is, not at all. The deist has the exact same tools in his or her disposal as you do.
And the worst - the evil temptation of faith - if I'll go with the definition that evil is immoral, then you say that the temptation of faith is immoral. Having a strong faith yourself, on which you based your morality, this is a paradox. If you define evil as unholy, well, you need holy to have the unholy, which for me does not exist as an Atheist. Does it exist for you?
And the concept of a prayer - I'm not against prayer, as long as you define who or what it is that you pray to. Yourself? I'm cool with this concept, sort of a self affirmation. Anything else? You'll have to convince me that there's a good reason for it.
-- Arik
Michael S Black
· 3 years ago
Logic dictates that you do not try to disprove the existence of Deities
Andrew
· 3 years ago
I have quite a different perspective on all of this. I'm a pretty religious guy, but my faith in God is not the result of superstition or ignorance, as many atheists tend to believe. In fact, I can understand why atheists tend to look down on people of faith. There are plenty of religious folk spouting off crazy ideas ("The world is ending on _____ date!"), or clinging to beliefs that are easilly proven wrong ("The world is 6,000 years old.", etc.) But, as is usually the case, the folks who are the loudest tend to be the ones with the worst ideas. So please don't let the ridiculousness of some believers give you the impression that any faith in God must also be irrational or superstitious.
I also don't believe that science and reason are incompatible with faith in God. When I read about discoveries in physics and astonomy, I feel like an ant discovering a computer. The elegance, precision and beauty of the universe give us a glimpse into the awesome mind that (I believe) created it.
But, as a previous poster mentioned, the existence of God will always be a matter of belief. I'll certainly never be able to prove to someone else that my faith is correct. And I'd have to be pretty arrogant to assume that I have all the answers. I guess the bottom line is that my faith has had a very positive impact on my life... So it's not superstition or ignorance that gives me faith in God, but rather the preponderance of the evidence I've seen to this point.
Just wanted to add a different point of view to the discussion! :)
Daniel Miessler
· 3 years ago
Arik,
I don't really have a "prayer" like the one I posted; that's just something I saw while reading a Wired article about Dawkins. I thought it was noteworthy so I posted it -- nothing more.
As for atheism being a belief, here's the best way to put it:
“If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
Daniel Miessler
· 3 years ago
Andrew,
Thanks for posting. You are in much the same place I was around 15 years ago. I don't mean that condescendingly either -- but literally. You are not some crazy religious person who falls for the dumb stuff, just someone who believes that the beauty that we see every day in the world is the product of a greater being.
I wrote something many years ago that you may find interesting, and I'll leave you with it:
"It is both foolish and arrogant to assume that because we don't understand something it must be divine."
The concept here is that just because something is awesome, beautiful, and full of mystery to you and me doesn't mean it's special. I know that's wholly difficult to hear (it is to say as well). It's not that I don't think the universe is special -- it most certainly is -- but try and imagine us as lowly bacteria analyzing the latest personal computer, or a leaf on a tree.
These things are amazing, to be sure, but they are more so because we don't understand them. It's easy to impress and mystify us. We are, after all, just bacteria.
Arik
· 3 years ago
Daniel,
> “If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
That depends on what your definition of Atheism is.
If it is "The absence of belief in a deity" then you would be correct, but, in my world you're an Agnostic, and not an Atheist.
If it is "The belief in the absence of a deity" then you're an Atheist in my book, but the analogy that you have mentioned no longer holds, because it describes the absence of a hobby rather than a different one.
Now which one are you?
For me, being an Atheist means that I have found the core set of beliefs I live my life. It includes the belief in the absence of a deity. If you come to me today and prove to me that a deity exists, I will not believe you. I don't believe it can happen, though.
All Comments
"the evil temptation of faith"? "our reason will subjugate our superstition"?
I think you are slightly off. For me, Atheism is a belief just like Deism is a belief. I (an Atheist) cannot prove the basis for my faith (for I believe in the absence of a deity), just as I cannot prove the Deist's basis for his or her faith (the existence of a deity).
Reason plays no role in my belief. Had there been a way to disprove the existence of any and all deities, things might be different, but all you are saying is - my reasoning demands that there is no deity. Your reasoning, your subjective reasoning. You are as objective as the deist - that is, not at all. The deist has the exact same tools in his or her disposal as you do.
And the worst - the evil temptation of faith - if I'll go with the definition that evil is immoral, then you say that the temptation of faith is immoral. Having a strong faith yourself, on which you based your morality, this is a paradox. If you define evil as unholy, well, you need holy to have the unholy, which for me does not exist as an Atheist. Does it exist for you?
And the concept of a prayer - I'm not against prayer, as long as you define who or what it is that you pray to. Yourself? I'm cool with this concept, sort of a self affirmation. Anything else? You'll have to convince me that there's a good reason for it.
-- Arik
I also don't believe that science and reason are incompatible with faith in God. When I read about discoveries in physics and astonomy, I feel like an ant discovering a computer. The elegance, precision and beauty of the universe give us a glimpse into the awesome mind that (I believe) created it.
But, as a previous poster mentioned, the existence of God will always be a matter of belief. I'll certainly never be able to prove to someone else that my faith is correct. And I'd have to be pretty arrogant to assume that I have all the answers. I guess the bottom line is that my faith has had a very positive impact on my life... So it's not superstition or ignorance that gives me faith in God, but rather the preponderance of the evidence I've seen to this point.
Just wanted to add a different point of view to the discussion! :)
I don't really have a "prayer" like the one I posted; that's just something I saw while reading a Wired article about Dawkins. I thought it was noteworthy so I posted it -- nothing more.
As for atheism being a belief, here's the best way to put it:
“If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
Thanks for posting. You are in much the same place I was around 15 years ago. I don't mean that condescendingly either -- but literally. You are not some crazy religious person who falls for the dumb stuff, just someone who believes that the beauty that we see every day in the world is the product of a greater being.
I wrote something many years ago that you may find interesting, and I'll leave you with it:
"It is both foolish and arrogant to assume that because we don't understand something it must be divine."
The concept here is that just because something is awesome, beautiful, and full of mystery to you and me doesn't mean it's special. I know that's wholly difficult to hear (it is to say as well). It's not that I don't think the universe is special -- it most certainly is -- but try and imagine us as lowly bacteria analyzing the latest personal computer, or a leaf on a tree.
These things are amazing, to be sure, but they are more so because we don't understand them. It's easy to impress and mystify us. We are, after all, just bacteria.
> “If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
That depends on what your definition of Atheism is.
If it is "The absence of belief in a deity" then you would be correct, but, in my world you're an Agnostic, and not an Atheist.
If it is "The belief in the absence of a deity" then you're an Atheist in my book, but the analogy that you have mentioned no longer holds, because it describes the absence of a hobby rather than a different one.
Now which one are you?
For me, being an Atheist means that I have found the core set of beliefs I live my life. It includes the belief in the absence of a deity. If you come to me today and prove to me that a deity exists, I will not believe you. I don't believe it can happen, though.
-- Arik