I was listening to the Tavis Smiley show on NPR once and they where discussing a news article, I think it was in Chicago, but I may be wrong about that, that was quoting statistics to show that teachers where intentionally keeping black students from succeeding. The guests on Tavis Smiley took strong opposition to that conclusion. One man pointed out that it was more likely the astronomically high levels of children living in homes without fathers was a bigger factor than professionals who have dedicated their life to helping children achieve despite the low pay involved. He further went on that as long as blacks are going to play the finger pointing game then the longer it will take to play catch up. Once the black community starts taking responsibility for solving its problems, despite where they might come from, that lack of progress would be inevitable. This is true despite your skin color. Even if you are a victim, you are unlikely to better yourself if you sit around and mope about it. You have to take initiative to put yourself in a better position because your oppressors are very unlikely to do it for you, by definition.
Derek
· 1 year ago
C'mon-are you really going there? You've got it half right and half wrong, but are not using the logic of your half right part to render your half wrong part irrelevant. You're right about it being a systemic cultural cycle, you're wrong about everything else. Do you really think 50 years of "legal" de-segregation makes up for the centuries of all the other bullshit? The fact of that matter is that, yes, people are individuals, but also that people are members of societal and cultural groups. Humans are designed to follow. With corporations and governments showing black people relatively little regard or support in equality among races/classes, 50 years is not enough to bring a culture of being "less than" for several centuries to a level playing field with white America. Please don't use the phrase "90’s theme of high victimization and low responsibility" so loosely again. I appreciate your Libertarian tendencies and ideally I support that, but this country victimizes and exploits too many people/cultures/societies without being checked on it for personal responsibility to be the end all-be all.
ncloud
· 1 year ago
Great post, thank you.
Derek
· 1 year ago
I hesitate to call you all racists, but you're certainly unsympathetic to the black plight. In very much the same way you point out the black culture's lack of personal responsibility as the reason they are still having troubles, I point out the fact that you all are more content to let black people figure out centuries of injustice on their own AND blame it on them when they haven't been able to resolve the injustice in 50 years. Lend a helping hand, brother.
Steven G. Harms
· 1 year ago
Derek,
Please qualify “helping hand”.
Derek
· 1 year ago
"helping hand" is sympathy and compassion and less concern on negating parts of an opinion that represent a larger issue. posts like these seem to me to trivialize a real issue of inequality in America and the world. yes, he's educated and should be making points clear and everything he says can and should be debated, but can be done so without hints of "black people are responsible for their own problems", because again, it's bullshit to expect a minority population to bring themselves out of an institutionalized inequality of several centuries over a course of 50 years.
Steven G. Harms
· 1 year ago
Derek,
Funny, women seem to have done it just fine?
Steven
derek
· 1 year ago
Its really not funny because women aren't a culture in the same way black people are. Women live and interact with men primarily based on sexuality, as opposed to the still very segregated living situation of the white and lack populations. The problem here is the generalization of what inequality is when it actually lives and breathes in many different forms.
derek
· 1 year ago
plus if you think women are on the same playing field as men, there is a lot you are ignoring.
TIMM
· 1 year ago
"There is a vicious prison system that hungers for young black and brown bodies. The more young black and brown folk are thrown in jail, the more cells are built, and the more money made."
I'm split on this one. I happen to know enough about the extremely effective lobbying powers of penitentiary system, including the guards and the facility management providers. Part of their overall pull is exactly what has contributed to California's budget deficit, year after year. It's a built in expense increase into every annual budget, just as the state assembly's wage increase is already automatically increased.
This sort of thing didn't happen on it's own, or by accident. There are powerful unions taking the brunt of the impact from public backlash, but also the prison service companies, who obversely seem immune to any regard by the vocal public. At one time, Schwarzenegger was going to pursue the guard unions, but after the first year it was obvious he was going to have to back off. They are very deeply entrenched in their positions, and are continuing to increase their profit margins by the year.
So, I do see the prisons as greedy sumbitches.
However, the institutionalized cultural norms for potential and existing prisoners do favor the majority of blacks, and then whites, and then hispanics, in my estimation. Even without the disparage in sentencing standards for so-called "white" crimes vs "minority" crimes, ie: cocaine distribution equals crack possession, the culture outside prisons, in streets and neighborhoods primarily black, is inherently violent and prone to crime. This is not to say that blacks are inherently violent, just that their potential is not being achieved because of the barrier within their own society, which often admits a diverse interest very apart from the mainstream, non-black America.
Are all blacks and browns so different from whites and asians? No, not too different, just prone to the good and bad parts of their specific attitudes that arise from both isolation and market driven identity norms that profit off frustrated youths readily angered and ready to rage against an inconsiderate world uncaring of the plights of their families needs, or their own. It's exploitative, and where violent rap music does charge the volatile black youth, angry speed metal charges the volatile white youth. In the atmosphere that compounds this on other media in a daily influence weeks upon months upon years, engulfing too much of a lifetime, I find little reason to question the outcome when it's as predictable as the mechanisms in a clock.
My angry youth was spent listening to Andrew Dice Clay and Sam Kineson, and it was like an epiphany to me. I learned to say, "fuck this, fuck that.", with ease, and such a casual air that I could finally question the importance of things coming into my 13 year old catholic life, and the world took a different shape. I began to immediately question what things were worth, based on how much I wouldn't say "fuck that". It added new dimensions, and I learned to reign them in, rather quickly. With other albums, like Run DMC's Raising Hell, giving fuel to a blooming sense of pride and awareness of self worth, I found my direction, and found the need for such direction very compelling.
Today I can see the same influence on today's kids, and I can gauge who will fall into what traps. Not well, but I get the vague image of what directions the young are currently receiving. Merely observe the kids at bus stops. Read the magazines. Watch what is on the popular channels. Go to the malls. You'll see that their message, the motto that pervades their, our, media is that pride and self worth goes before, and often in the place of, community needs and forward thinking. Instead of constructive marketing, nurturing the generations into their adulthood, there is a raw message of capitalizing on any resource in your reach, and you are nothing unless you are living as large as you can.
What makes me different than that to fall into that category, that demographic? My weaknesses aren't so trackable, not so profitable, and I am immune to the environment an immoral market seeks to maintain for those otherwise forward thinking, responsible, generous young men coming up and staring through the gates of the ghetto, wondering what life is like outside the world they know.
-=T=-
Steven G. Harms
· 1 year ago
Derek,
If you look at the population demographic that has most impacted the Western workplace since 1960, you will see it has been women. I find your suggestion that "women don't constitute a culture" highly specious: if what you said were the case I don't believe there would be the women's magazine movement, cars designed for feminine choices, ad infinitum. Allow me people's exhibit 1: Oprah Winfrey. One of the wealthiest people in the world, also black, also a woman. Any interview with her will confirm women are treated as a minority but she had the diligence to transcend that.
Further your definition of what does and does not constitute a “culture” — and thus a minority culture — is nebulous. Is a minority a race ( Asian ), a gender ( women ), a sexuality ( lesbian ), a religion ( Catholic ), a historical ancestry ( Armenian ). It gives your argument a protean quality which makes any true understanding difficult.
I can certainly say that the Jewish minority seems to have done well with itself— but you could say that you meant racial groups. I could say that the Italian minority has done well with itself; but you could say you meant non–national boundaries, etc.
Derek
· 1 year ago
Steven, You're points are all valid, and I agree with everything you just said. I did not elaborate on those topics because its straying form the debate at hand. Yes, women can provide a demographic, but very rarely do you see women living in neighborhoods of and within themselves. Because male population has such a high level interaction with the female population, there is not the same disregard for female culture. When you consider the interaction of the white population and black population, the segregation roots from racism and has never really recovered in many ways. Women have not had the same level of segregation from men. And all this is not to say that one person can't transcend that (ala Oprah), but that's like saying someone can come up with the theory of relativity. Sure, there are people capable of it, but we are not all fortunate enough to be born with the circumstances and genetics to conquer every hardship.
All Comments
I was listening to the Tavis Smiley show on NPR once and they where discussing a news article, I think it was in Chicago, but I may be wrong about that, that was quoting statistics to show that teachers where intentionally keeping black students from succeeding.
The guests on Tavis Smiley took strong opposition to that conclusion. One man pointed out that it was more likely the astronomically high levels of children living in homes without fathers was a bigger factor than professionals who have dedicated their life to helping children achieve despite the low pay involved. He further went on that as long as blacks are going to play the finger pointing game then the longer it will take to play catch up. Once the black community starts taking responsibility for solving its problems, despite where they might come from, that lack of progress would be inevitable.
This is true despite your skin color. Even if you are a victim, you are unlikely to better yourself if you sit around and mope about it. You have to take initiative to put yourself in a better position because your oppressors are very unlikely to do it for you, by definition.
C'mon-are you really going there? You've got it half right and half wrong, but are not using the logic of your half right part to render your half wrong part irrelevant. You're right about it being a systemic cultural cycle, you're wrong about everything else. Do you really think 50 years of "legal" de-segregation makes up for the centuries of all the other bullshit? The fact of that matter is that, yes, people are individuals, but also that people are members of societal and cultural groups. Humans are designed to follow. With corporations and governments showing black people relatively little regard or support in equality among races/classes, 50 years is not enough to bring a culture of being "less than" for several centuries to a level playing field with white America. Please don't use the phrase "90’s theme of high victimization and low responsibility" so loosely again. I appreciate your Libertarian tendencies and ideally I support that, but this country victimizes and exploits too many people/cultures/societies without being checked on it for personal responsibility to be the end all-be all.
Great post, thank you.
I hesitate to call you all racists, but you're certainly unsympathetic to the black plight. In very much the same way you point out the black culture's lack of personal responsibility as the reason they are still having troubles, I point out the fact that you all are more content to let black people figure out centuries of injustice on their own AND blame it on them when they haven't been able to resolve the injustice in 50 years. Lend a helping hand, brother.
Derek,
Please qualify “helping hand”.
"helping hand" is sympathy and compassion and less concern on negating parts of an opinion that represent a larger issue. posts like these seem to me to trivialize a real issue of inequality in America and the world. yes, he's educated and should be making points clear and everything he says can and should be debated, but can be done so without hints of "black people are responsible for their own problems", because again, it's bullshit to expect a minority population to bring themselves out of an institutionalized inequality of several centuries over a course of 50 years.
Derek,
Funny, women seem to have done it just fine?
Steven
Its really not funny because women aren't a culture in the same way black people are. Women live and interact with men primarily based on sexuality, as opposed to the still very segregated living situation of the white and lack populations. The problem here is the generalization of what inequality is when it actually lives and breathes in many different forms.
plus if you think women are on the same playing field as men, there is a lot you are ignoring.
"There is a vicious prison system that hungers for young black and brown bodies. The more young black and brown folk are thrown in jail, the more cells are built, and the more money made."
I'm split on this one. I happen to know enough about the extremely effective lobbying powers of penitentiary system, including the guards and the facility management providers. Part of their overall pull is exactly what has contributed to California's budget deficit, year after year. It's a built in expense increase into every annual budget, just as the state assembly's wage increase is already automatically increased.
This sort of thing didn't happen on it's own, or by accident. There are powerful unions taking the brunt of the impact from public backlash, but also the prison service companies, who obversely seem immune to any regard by the vocal public. At one time, Schwarzenegger was going to pursue the guard unions, but after the first year it was obvious he was going to have to back off. They are very deeply entrenched in their positions, and are continuing to increase their profit margins by the year.
So, I do see the prisons as greedy sumbitches.
However, the institutionalized cultural norms for potential and existing prisoners do favor the majority of blacks, and then whites, and then hispanics, in my estimation. Even without the disparage in sentencing standards for so-called "white" crimes vs "minority" crimes, ie: cocaine distribution equals crack possession, the culture outside prisons, in streets and neighborhoods primarily black, is inherently violent and prone to crime. This is not to say that blacks are inherently violent, just that their potential is not being achieved because of the barrier within their own society, which often admits a diverse interest very apart from the mainstream, non-black America.
Are all blacks and browns so different from whites and asians? No, not too different, just prone to the good and bad parts of their specific attitudes that arise from both isolation and market driven identity norms that profit off frustrated youths readily angered and ready to rage against an inconsiderate world uncaring of the plights of their families needs, or their own. It's exploitative, and where violent rap music does charge the volatile black youth, angry speed metal charges the volatile white youth. In the atmosphere that compounds this on other media in a daily influence weeks upon months upon years, engulfing too much of a lifetime, I find little reason to question the outcome when it's as predictable as the mechanisms in a clock.
My angry youth was spent listening to Andrew Dice Clay and Sam Kineson, and it was like an epiphany to me. I learned to say, "fuck this, fuck that.", with ease, and such a casual air that I could finally question the importance of things coming into my 13 year old catholic life, and the world took a different shape. I began to immediately question what things were worth, based on how much I wouldn't say "fuck that". It added new dimensions, and I learned to reign them in, rather quickly. With other albums, like Run DMC's Raising Hell, giving fuel to a blooming sense of pride and awareness of self worth, I found my direction, and found the need for such direction very compelling.
Today I can see the same influence on today's kids, and I can gauge who will fall into what traps. Not well, but I get the vague image of what directions the young are currently receiving. Merely observe the kids at bus stops. Read the magazines. Watch what is on the popular channels. Go to the malls. You'll see that their message, the motto that pervades their, our, media is that pride and self worth goes before, and often in the place of, community needs and forward thinking. Instead of constructive marketing, nurturing the generations into their adulthood, there is a raw message of capitalizing on any resource in your reach, and you are nothing unless you are living as large as you can.
What makes me different than that to fall into that category, that demographic? My weaknesses aren't so trackable, not so profitable, and I am immune to the environment an immoral market seeks to maintain for those otherwise forward thinking, responsible, generous young men coming up and staring through the gates of the ghetto, wondering what life is like outside the world they know.
-=T=-
Derek,
If you look at the population demographic that has most impacted the Western workplace since 1960, you will see it has been women. I find your suggestion that "women don't constitute a culture" highly specious: if what you said were the case I don't believe there would be the women's magazine movement, cars designed for feminine choices, ad infinitum. Allow me people's exhibit 1: Oprah Winfrey. One of the wealthiest people in the world, also black, also a woman. Any interview with her will confirm women are treated as a minority but she had the diligence to transcend that.
Further your definition of what does and does not constitute a “culture” — and thus a minority culture — is nebulous. Is a minority a race ( Asian ), a gender ( women ), a sexuality ( lesbian ), a religion ( Catholic ), a historical ancestry ( Armenian ). It gives your argument a protean quality which makes any true understanding difficult.
I can certainly say that the Jewish minority seems to have done well with itself— but you could say that you meant racial groups. I could say that the Italian minority has done well with itself; but you could say you meant non–national boundaries, etc.
Steven,
You're points are all valid, and I agree with everything you just said. I did not elaborate on those topics because its straying form the debate at hand. Yes, women can provide a demographic, but very rarely do you see women living in neighborhoods of and within themselves. Because male population has such a high level interaction with the female population, there is not the same disregard for female culture. When you consider the interaction of the white population and black population, the segregation roots from racism and has never really recovered in many ways. Women have not had the same level of segregation from men. And all this is not to say that one person can't transcend that (ala Oprah), but that's like saying someone can come up with the theory of relativity. Sure, there are people capable of it, but we are not all fortunate enough to be born with the circumstances and genetics to conquer every hardship.